Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effect?
Posted by Mike B on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
So, I go through these runs of sticks where they all come off early and I get the carrot top effect. No tobacco near the filter, a lot puffing up out of the top. It's REALLY irritating and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I try more tobacco, I try less, I try filling the corners more, try filling them less. Try fast motion, try slow motion, you get the idea. It's just plain random.
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- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effect?
- Posted by Taxucks on Monday, 28-Jan-2008
I made over 100, and I got a few "carrot-tops". It has a lot to do with how 'springy' or moist your tobacco is, and how much you're trying to inject.
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After getting a carrot top, I tried to do another on purpose, except this time, I worked the mechanism on my machine and watched where the gripper contacts the paper, then rotated the tube so the gripper would grab the seam.
It came out with a funky twist, but no ripped paper.
I find turning the seam of the tube to be pinched by the gripper yields pretty good results.
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effect?
- Posted by KL on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
All you have to do is this. To start with, I have my tube nozzle pointing to the left on the Top-O-Matic when I set it on the table.
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While injecting a smoke:
when you start the crank handle you can see the spoon with tobacco entering the tube,
at the point when the spoon is a touch past halfway into the tube reach over with your left hand and hold the tube on the nozzle with your thumb and forefinger until you feel the spoon try to push the tube off the nozzle (by the spoon hitting the filter) at that point, let the spoon push it off. your done.
Optional : before retracting the spoon out of the tube, grab the end of the tube (the carrot top end) and let the spoon retract thru your fingers while you hold the tobacco in the tube. Your smoke will be perfect.
the Top-O-Matic will do this thing you call the "Carrot Top Effect" if the tobacco isn't just right. No Big Deal. just hold the tube on the nozzle with your hand while you crank the tobacco into the tube, Then hold the tobacco in the tube while you retract the spoon. that's all there is to it. easy.
kl
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effect?
- Posted by Dave Lers on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
Do what works for you. If the machine cannot hold and release the tube when its supposed to, I'd do something about it [link].
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- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effect?
- Posted by KL on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
There are sections of this forum to learn how to tune your machine and/or tobacco for best results, so you don't have to use little bandaid moves like the one i gave you.
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In other words, this is a temp. suggestion that works, and will give you a perfect smoke. So will a well adjusted machine with tobacco in good condition.
kl
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effect?
- Posted by Dave Lers on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
Carrot top is a good description, see the crank machine How To.
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OT: Fixed the Oops/chopped title on replies to long topic titles.
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by mike c on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
things should generally go easy, in fact I just ripped the time release off of my everyday machine, since it had a tendency to slightly return to a "bump"
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you should be able to get the stick to hold on with nothing more than spring tension itself...maybe a visit to a hardware store, or maybe a major flame to the manufacture for a refund
I have found out privately that the Supermatic looks like the best machine because it is not so sensitive to diff tobacco cuts and moisture levels (it remains to be told if the plastic cutter fixes this but my informant has both and didn't even see any value in trying a rotation)
I constantly use moist tobacco and have o problems, however I was listening to something rather heavy last night and injected a stick with a little too much attitude, and the damned crank handle ball went soaring off
luckily I have an extra, but it's a black crank arm which I'd like to repair if possible, since I prefer things black lol
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by Captain U-96 aka Mike on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
I have been more worried about the filter end being sure I physically move tobacco to the Left end of the chamber with my little finger. Sometimes I've gotten a false feeling; where the tobacco felt as if it moved to the end, but not quite! It has the tendency to happen with coarse tobaccos, or highly moist shag tobacco. I've also discovered that as long as there is sufficient tobacco in the right side of the chamber the pack will be fine. I always get the carrot top, and am glad, because I cut and trim and end up with a stick identical in looks to factory made.
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Capt Mike
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by mike c on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
and I don't get that consistent of the overstuff (prefer not to think of carrot top overmuch, funny guy though), but then again I am a "ten tap" person (which leads to a flush stick or even slightly less, oft times) so could there lie our difference??
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also, we are dealing with 2 possible TOP machines-
I know yours is the original but don't know which I was informed about
what I heard was that it has a smoothness which can mislead it's fussy nature
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by Mike B on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
THanks. The PROBLEM with my carrot top is that the tobacco is not going to the filter. Not even close. Imagine all of the tobacco sticking out (a LOT) and that same amount of space between the tobacco and filter inside the tube.
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I did figure out this morning that it does this more frequently with Silver Tips than the windsail tubes and it is also more prone when using Two Timer (which is tied with windsail for my favorite right now).
I'm scared to tune the damned thing to be honest with you.
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by dan b on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
"Carrot Top Effect" is a perfect description of the problem. I had two of these occur yesterday (out the 2+ packs I stuffed). My opinion is that the problem comes from tobacco that's a little too dry, especially when you throw in some shake and powder.
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I'm getting near the bottom of the bag now, and never had this occur with higher moisture-content tobacco. Take a look at the tips for re-hydrating tobacco if this sounds like it applies to your situation as well.
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by Dave Lers on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
Dry tobacco and shake is a problem only in that its easy to use too much [because it has no 'spring'], i.e. over loading the chamber is the root cause, not the dryness. Tobacco that's too moist clings to the spoon, grabs the tube on the way out, gets piled up in the chamber, etc. Aside from mechanical issues, the root cause of void/carrot top is too much tobacco and/or tobacco that's too moist.
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- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by Kerry on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
Listen to Dave.
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- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by mike c on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
and Kerry, some pretty mind bending techniques we've waded through (you confronting them)
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luckily I didn't get thrown off the path
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by dan b on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
I believe it was Mike B who had the original question...
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I love how we all danced around the issue, some giving machine adjustment tips etc. Finally Dave hits the carrot-top on the head
"over loading the chamber is the root cause" man that was beautiful, shows why I'm still a newbie.
Dave's post should be added to the top of every injector owners user guide
[link]
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by mike c on Wednesday, 09-Jan-2008
hey Dan last night when I posted about the "storage" I apologize as you had basically already covered that base and I was rushing through
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I just wanted to clarify that the original bags are still good if need be...
as far as Mike B's carrot top, I don't have any Top-o-matic experience but I will add that an overpack/overstuff can still work, and simply result in a smoke you cannot draw through properly, so his problem seems a bit unusual/difficult....however agreed that Dave's answer would be the first thing to look at
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by KL on Wednesday, 09-Jan-2008
Well, he also said that he was getting a very large filter gap, so the only thing he can do with that (after the damage is done) is make a non-filter out of it, or did I miss read that?
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I thought he had to do something to stop the huge filter gap.
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by mike c on Wednesday, 09-Jan-2008
yes, and BTW I recall my friend (yes I repeat myself) saying she was holding the tubes on her Top at one point as well, but when I was over there more recently it wasn't needed
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there is no argument that you provided a bypass, however the root of the problem, if not simply overstuffing, is still in my opinion a gripper/spring tension mechanical issue
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by mike c on Wednesday, 09-Jan-2008
or be stubborn like me and do the "twist and shake" and empty the tube out which is what I do on the rare occasion of a misfire,,,lol
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I wish I could use his machine, pretty sure I'd then know in about 2 seconds
I even wonder if it could be a "bad machine" as I think there actually IS a possibility of this....maybe a chamber/cutter misfit or something
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by KL on Wednesday, 09-Jan-2008
Mr. Coleman
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I totally agree.
I was also wondering if it might be a bad machine. Or
is it true there is no such thing as Bad Machines, but just Bad adjustments/ User-misconception or combination of all.
I took the gripper timing thing off my Top-O-Matic, so the gripper would always stay on as long as it could and only open to let me mount new tubes, then I would just hold the tube on as if it's a normal part of the cycle. My left hand isn't doing anything at that time in the cycle anyways. I'm actually holding it on for just a split second anyways. Just during the time it takes to travel thru the filter gap creating part of the cycle. This works very well with 100mm tubes, the tobacco stuffing is never too tightly packed and absolutely never needs any taping. This speeds things up quite a bit. With 100mm tubes you can just Crank it and drop em, crank it and drop em, never needing to trim or tap (with 100mm tubes only that is, with kings you still need to trim excess tobacco hanging out) Trimming them kind of makes them look cooler, a nice flush trim job looks great.
PS
I know you already know all this stuff.
I guess I went on and on a bit.
Don't you think it would be really cool if we could submit videos of our different machine usage styles? Like how different people deal with stuffing challenging tobacco, and a tweak like the flipped handle and vertical machine thing, tuning the machine, Mods, or whatever. I read somewhere in a recent post that someone was scared to tune up their machine, fearing that it would never be the same again, you know...stuff like that. What do you think?
love ya... kl lol
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by mike c on Wednesday, 09-Jan-2008
oh god bad day dallas way
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it looks to me like you've given a great contributuon
without adopting that technique since the tapping gets out my agression I'm totally convinced
dave and david have contributed vids, don't know if they're still up-
maybe yours is next???
i have a bad clone machine
it is an accursed thing that mysteriously underfills, and it is now stripped and forgotten
it was given to me unexpectedly and freely because it's original nozzle was whack
i need my mommy.....
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by mike c's Mommy on Saturday, 12-Jan-2008
Mike:
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As your Mother I need you to place a link to those videos you speak of, for I can't find them.
PS
What did I tell you about using words like Whack! in public!, you have embarrassed the whole family.
Wait till your father gets home !
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by mike c on Saturday, 12-Jan-2008
this is a rare instance that I am a glad not even a corpse remains of you
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- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by mike c on Saturday, 12-Jan-2008
I've never claimed to be good at searching, although I suspect the videos are history...Dave would be the one to ask, sorry
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- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by KL on Saturday, 12-Jan-2008
Mike C:
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Oh Well...You gave it a try.
Your a good sport and thanks for your effort. There's allot to be said for someone that always have time to help.
I still think it would be cool to add things like that to the forum.
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by Taxucks on Monday, 28-Jan-2008
Thanks for the tip, dan b. I don't get so many c-t's that it really bugs me too much, I'll set 'em aside and smoke 'em while I'm rollin.
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Moist tobacco is definitely gonna cut easier though.
If I feel there might be a little too much, I just go for it, turning the tube so the seam contacts the gripper seems to have alleviated this problem for me.
YMMV.
- Re: Anyone getting the "Carrot Top" effe
- Posted by mike c on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
i doubt anyone could have been more scared than I was a year ago, and I cringe to think if any of those posts are still available
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I remember cap. mike assuring me I could handle it when I first got a machine
to me, tweaking seems to be the only way I could have an enjoyable experience
without reading further answers to your problem, it does sound like your machine is in need of some TLC