CRANK VS HH
Posted by TOECUTTER on Friday, 28-Dec-2007
JUST THOUGHT ID PICK YOUR ALLS BRAIN BEFORE THIS FORUM
(WHICH WILL BE MISSED), ENDS. WHAT IS THE ADVANTAGE OF A CRANK INJECTOR OVER A HANDHELD (RAYO TWIN) WHEN I CAN MAKE A PACK OF NICELY STUFFED SMOKES IN UNDER 10 MINUTES?
ARE THEY THAT MUCH FASTER? I DONT HAVE LOOSE CHERRIES, GET A CONSISTENT DRAW, AND LIKE I SAID, A PACK IN LESS THAN
10 MINUTES, CASUALLY. IVE ALSO HAD A LOT OF SUCCESS WITH THE ZIG-ZAG HH ($7.00) MACHINE ALBEIT A BIT SLOWER. BEEN SYOIN FOR ABOUT 2 YEARS AND WONDER IF A MATIC WOULD HELP VERSUS THE COST. APPRECIATE ANY HELP.
DAVE Z
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- Re: CRANK VS HH
- Posted by Which Crank you say ? on Thursday, 03-Jan-2008
Mr Z
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I have one Premier Supermatic, one Premier Excel and one Top-O-Matic also about 6 or so Hand held Injectors.
all of my Hand Helds (HH) are designed like the Gizeh HH injectors.
The differences of the crank styles to me are :
The Top has a heavy shell and lighter inner parts.
Is less tolerant of different moisture levels (don't like it too dry or too wet or to shaky, it likes it leafy)
It is a very smooth operating machine when the tobacco is right. Don't get me wrong...it's real easy to keep the tobacco right for the TOP, it's best to keep it right anyways, for any injector, I do, and so will most people. But the top is a little less tolerant, that's all, and it's a smoother feeling injector meaning it takes less effort to crank the handle and cycle through the process. I like that about the TOP
The Supermatic (the new one) is quite smooth now, compared to how it used to be.
Is a little more tolerant of different tobacco cuts and moisture levels and the inner parts are a tad heavier made.
I'm willing to bet they both have the same record of breakdowns and I'll also bet no one machine is better than the other.
Don't let the metal construction fool you into thinking they can take the punishment, they can't, be very nice to them and read the warnings
I wish TOP made more models then what they do. Premier's Excel model is really nice and maybe my all time fav of the premier line, so far.
I really wish TOP made a No-Holds-Bared Model that had the TOP smoothness and the beef we all wish someone would build into one.
Something of a professional quality and build,
maybe even a $100 to $200 price range or whatever, I'm just grabbing at straws here.
kl
- Re: CRANK VS HH
- Posted by DAVE Z on Friday, 04-Jan-2008
I appreciate your alls help. I am personally happy w/ my HH, but decided on the Super-C for my wife. Shes not an huge fan of the HH I got for her, the Premier Twin. I almost got the Top, American Thrust has the Super for $40.85, so I got that one. Again thanks all.
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- Re: CRANK VS HH
- Posted by KL on Friday, 04-Jan-2008
Wise choice.
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The TOM or the Supermatic is a very wise choice.
- Re: CRANK VS HH
- Posted by dave z on Tuesday, 08-Jan-2008
Just received my wifes new Supermatic today. After a few practice smokes, about 20, I was cranking them out at about 10 minutes per pack. Of course thats an 18 smoke, Smokey pack, but I was stuffing from a " 14 oz. lb.". So I am happy I bought it and thanks again for the advice. Now I want one too. Maybe Ill get the TOM for me. Sort of like power steering compared to the HH's. Well thanks again.
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- Re: CRANK VS HH
- Posted by Captain U-96 aka Mike on Wednesday, 02-Jan-2008
It's a matter of convenience! I started out with a plastic rolling machine and Bugler. Then, for a short period of time I used several of the HH's--never being quite satisfied with their performance. I finally broke down and bought the Maroon Supermatic, and wondered why I hadn't done so sooner! Of coarse, I didn't read the directions more than once, and didn't follow them either and the Super died a premature death caused by ignorance. A new machine and a lighter wallet seemed to change the way I viewed the Instruction Manual and its suggestions! I wore that machine out almost, but the new Blue Supermatic came out and I had to have one!
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The point I am trying to make is what works for you "is" the best. I still have a couple hand helds I will break out now and then, but I think my Top O Matic is "the" machine! All I need to do is get one of those new plastic cutter/compressors and I'll really be in there! The Top O Matic goes with me on trips in its own carrying case.
I make em as I need em, which allows me to make a different blend when I want it, and only make a packs worth when I go out. I don't get any loose cherries; they are far and few between these days! Finally the cost? I figure after the second carton of smokes the machine paid for itself! The only way you will know for sure is to give a cranker a chance. If nothing else, it will be a change of pace and it will pay for itself in short order. I apologize for the long post, but I wanted to shed the most light on Dave Z's question; which led me to explain my own thinking. Capt Mike
- Re: CRANK VS HH
- Posted by mike c on Wednesday, 02-Jan-2008
the only time I can make sense of a slider is when I have to run onto a bus....I too carry a machine as needed. FWIW, and BTW, as I previously reported the (at least newer) TOP cutter/compressor didn't seem to scratch the chamber as the other machines, but I highly doubt you'll have the cleaness of the plastic cutter....a simple opening of the corner of the rubber base to let a little shake-fall out seems to be the only maintenence
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my friend(s) machine was COVERED in tobacco mess inside, mine stay CLEAN
what's taking you so long????
back to pierre moerlin (what's left of him)
- Re: CRANK VS HH
- Posted by DAVE Z on Wednesday, 02-Jan-2008
Thanks for your alls input. My wife is having trouble w/ her HH, so now the question is, which crank? You guys seem divided between the TOP and the Super. Any advice? thanks, Dave Z
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PS: getting tired of making all hers too.
- Re: CRANK VS HH
- Posted by mike c on Thursday, 03-Jan-2008
oh no, not _that_ question
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nobody is supposed to ask that question lol
- Re: CRANK VS HH
- Posted by mike c on Thursday, 03-Jan-2008
alright alright, I'll do it
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but not without a little shifting of the burden
this site is the people's, so here it goes
the best person in the best position to really answer this is probably the site owner, but I'll give what I can
while the Supermatic is reported to contain the best quality internals, it is not the best injector in my home....mine is a Supermatic "B" series modified with the newer cutter and linkage......I have not used the newer C model and so do not know definitively if the tightness during injection has been eradicated. I use illegitimate bastardized clone machines also modified with the Supermatic cutters and linkage. These inject slightly fuller and lack the dreaded tightness I don't like.
The TOP is reportedly a heavier machine, and I am going out in a stretch here to say that if you are willing to add parts and do some work, this would get the crown........but if you don't want to do any fuss and just use it "as is" from the factory, either a Supermatic or a Top is OK, and I will let others take it from here after I add that the Supermatic has a reputable service and repair setup, and (while) the TOP seemingly less known and established, I did get it in my ear that Republic (Top's manufacturer) has been replacing parts free of charge on my friend's husband's machine.....now if that was in any way BS I cannot be sure, and the fact that he's needed parts doesn't look great
take it away boys (and girls)...someone....anyone.....
- Re: CRANK VS HH
- Posted by Paul on Saturday, 29-Dec-2007
Dave Z,
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I started on a handheld used it for about six months and thought that I had to have the crank machine. Still have it as a backup in case my crank injector breaks. I may have to practice a little since I have not used it in over three years. I work in a shipyard, I have friends at work that have never used a crank machine and have been stuffing for longer than me. They have no interest in a crank machine. We do talk about tobacco, prices, tubes, retailers but we don't talk too much about machines. They are just happy with their injectors. One guy pulls a baggy out of his jacket pocket and inside he has tobacco, tubes and injector. He makes them as he smokes them. He's happy to make more for moochers too. If I heard why folks like the hh's better, moving parts? maintenance? cost? That's a big one, how long have you had your injector? You're making smokes as fast as I do casually on a crank machine. I make mine daily before I go to work. So I have no answer for you except, that I went over to another friends house who showed me a premier blue metal model and I have a supermatic plastic model. I liked the blue metal model better. I thought that the action was a lot smoother. So I have my eye on one of those premiers. I have not had any problems with my machine but you have to be easy on it too. The handhelds can take a beating. In fact as I think about it I would have to use a handheld for traveling or vacations. Man I have not been on a vacation in a while. OK got to go start planning a vacation.
- Re: CRANK VS HH
- Posted by dan b on Saturday, 29-Dec-2007
In my limited experience, the crank-style injectors biggest advantage over the HH's is speed, because they don't require repeated tamping the tobacco into the chamber. Also, HH's seem to be prone to underfilling tubes, even after overfilling and repeatedly tamping tobacco in the chamber.
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I started with a ZigZag PrecisionPro, since it was advertised as being able to make KS & 100's. But, the reality for me was that it didn't make fully packed KS, even with repeated packing/tamping. Usually I'd end up dropping in a little extra tobacco into the chamber after injecting, then manually push & pack it into the end of the tube with a hobbyist paint brush handle to get it fully stuffed, so that it would be near flush after tapping. I averaged about 20 minutes or more for 10-12 cigs.
I then went to a Rizla 'cigarette size' kit, the HH injector was a remarkable upgrade from the ZZ (perhaps because of the smaller chamber) the quality of the device seemed to be a huge step-up, harder plastic with a more positive feel, the sliding pieces seem to be of a teflon like substance, and it gave much better results. The minor drawbacks are that it really ONLY works with the 'cig size' tubes (which aren't available to me locally), and the nozzle is a little too long, which can cause tobacco to hang up in it when removing the tube (so again I'd be poking the tobacco in the nozzle into the tube with my paint brush handle). I averaged about 20 minutes for a pack with it.
I've only had my Top-O-Matic for a couple weeks now, but wouldn't want to go back to the HH's for an extended time after using it. I'm still mostly using the 'cig size' tubes with it (after sanding/polishing the nozzle) although I have also used KS tubes (Gambler, Zen, ZigZag), the biggest plus for me is that it there is NO TAMPING REQUIRED and it usually overstuffs (I like a firm pack). 4 or 5 hard taps after injecting fully packs the tube to the filter and generally gets the tobacco flush or nearly flush with the end of the tube. I make a pack in about 10 minutes with it, and that includes tapping (and trimming if necessary).
Since Lil Brown, and a few retailers like Costco, sell the TOP for under $35 (and the box includes a certificate for getting $10 worth of coupons for TOP tobacco & tubes), cost shouldn't be much of an issue. However, if you can make a pack in 10 minutes with your HH, and are fully satisfied with the results I can't give you any good reason for upgrading to a crank machine.
- Re: CRANK VS HH
- Posted by mike c on Saturday, 29-Dec-2007
since I am up and in shock, I suppose trying to brainstorm on how to reverse Dave's decision (again?)......anyway, this would be my comment on that
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the tobacco slot
THE SLOT
and the way it stuffs more perfectly, tighter, more consistent, but to me the very very biggest deal is the SLOT
after you get used to using a machine and you go back and use the plastic slider HH, it is like being a cave-man trying to start a fire.....you want to laugh (trying to put the tobacco into the HH, versus putting it into the chamber of the machine)
when I came here about a year ago I made the hugest defence for HH's, and I almost hope my words are gone, because I was wrong
- Re: CRANK VS HH
- Posted by Freddie on Saturday, 29-Dec-2007
Think of the HH like a book of matches.
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Think of the crank like a bic lighter.
The matches are much slower.... but they get the job done. I always have a book of matches around incase I run out of lighter fluid.
In the same token, having a HH on a trip saves the day if I run out of smokes.